Michel Fortin SEO Consulting - Latest Comments in Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

PLR Rewriting — Wed, 28 May 2008 08:15:49 -0000

Hi Michel - Can't agree with your more on this one. I check out a lot of *new* info products about the business and indeed noticed this 'VA popup' technique. And yes, it turned me OFF.

It turned me off the first time I saw it and then I just realized that A LOT of people were doing it and I was just thinking that consumers will soon catch up that this is just another marketing ploy.

I perfectly agree too that if it should be used, a really good reason why - as opposed to a $10 discount - is better.

Thanks,
Lan

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Michel Fortin — Fri, 23 May 2008 10:43:25 -0000

Here's a great example:

Robert Puddy sells a membership site script. It goes for $297. But if you hover your mouse outside your browser to close it, a popover appears offering the "lite" version (downsell) for just $97 -- and the ability to upgrade at a later date:

http://www.launchformulamar...

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Gdi - Work At Home — Thu, 22 May 2008 13:49:05 -0000

to be honest i my self add products on cart and after when my credit card is aviable i bought them ...

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Michel Fortin — Mon, 19 May 2008 14:37:10 -0000

@Dr. Mani:

Perhaps you misread my post or didn't read some of my clarifying comments above. But I think you failed to add a third choice:

#3 - A customer who buys at a lower price, but bought because you did offer a lower price with a good reason why and/or a solid trade-off that doesn't devalue your initial offering (instead of simply offering a mere discount "just because" they were about to leave.

I would have offered either a bonus/incentive. But if I really wanted to give a discount, I would give a discount coupled with a good reason why or tied to something other than the fact that they're simply leaving.

(See my example in my previous comment, for instance.)

If you had just given me the first two choices, obviously I want the sales. But now I have to work twice as hard to rebuild or retain the value in my offering, and to sell higher priced offerings in the backend to that bargain hunter.

So if you would have given me the third choice above, that would be my choice.

Again, let me be clear. I'm not against making an OTO to an exiting customer, and I'm also not against a discount. But I would think long-term relationships and customer value, so that I don't discount my value in their eyes and/or don't have to work twice as hard to keep them as clients.

Customer acquisition is a lot more expensive than customer retention. But I believe we focus more on customer acquisition because it's easier than retention -- particularly when that acquisition was made using a bargain mindset.

If you sell one-hit wonders (one-shot sales) of a product, and you don't care about building a list, developing a funnel, or boosting profits through lifetime customer value, discounting is certainly the easiest and most productive way to do it.

And I agree with you 100%.

But my blog post is, like you, playing devil's advocate in saying that you should be careful and focus on the long-term.

I know this from actual testing myself in my own business.

I also know this from my own experience working with many top marketers.

It is that, backend sales (especially with higher-ticket backend sales) are a heckavulot harder with bargain hunters.

My 3 cents.

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Phil Spinelli — Mon, 19 May 2008 14:32:07 -0000

Maybe IF this is not a current customer. Some customers return over time and add items to the cart, then buy when they're ready.

Better if you can offer only NEW customers, a discount (also called buying customers).

Some companies in my industry offer free shipping on your first order.

thanks.

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Dr.Mani — Mon, 19 May 2008 14:08:52 -0000

Michel, interesting post. I read about it on Alice Seba's blog, so commented there first. I'll share one part of that comment, in the form of a question, playing Devil's advocate ;)

Of these 2 choices, which would you rather have?

#1 - A customer who buys from you at the lower price because s/he is a bargain hunter, or slow decision maker, or just â€˜warm' enough to buy only when incentivized.

#2 - A NON-customer who turns down your offer and so is allowed to walk away, perhaps to never return!

Give me a cash-paying discount hunter and I have a chance, with an education-marketing sequence of communication, to convert him/her into an ongoing repeat buyer.

But without that prospect in my funnel, in such a vast ocean as the online marketplace, what are my realistic chances of ever getting that non-buyer back to sample something else?

All success
Dr.Mani

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Phil Spinelli — Fri, 16 May 2008 10:38:05 -0000

It all boils down to testing in your own business.

It's a good idea to keep an open mind and read what other people are doing.

Just keep in mind, even reports from http://www.marketingsherpa.com and other research firms, don't alway give you the complete picture. I don't even read marketingsherpa stuff anymore.

Lately, I've found Jim Novo to be really informative (jimnovo.com) his website has a lot of solid info on coupons and such. Just about everything I've read from his website and book, we've found to be true in OUR business. His book, "drilling down" is great.

I think I'm also going to read "Secrets of a 10% Conversion Rate" on the home page of this site and see if I can get some new ideas.

thanks

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

John Matterson — Thu, 15 May 2008 22:21:13 -0000

We actually split-tested this recently and it LOST...

We tested 3 different version of the VA against
NO VA and they ALL LOST. It wasn't a big drop
(about 15%)...

However, since we send people BACK to the website
over and over again in our autoresponders -- I think
it turned them off from returning... and obviously
buying.

I think a REAL LIVE CHAT on the way out might work well?

That will probably be our next test...
John

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Phil Spinelli — Thu, 15 May 2008 15:50:47 -0000

Other cart suggestions that will help:

*Upsells and cross-sells in the cart will increase your orders too.
*Shipping policy should be available, people want to know when they will get items.
*satisfaction guarantee should be posted.
*credit card security statements (people are still scared about their credit cards and personal information)
*Optional log-in (people may want to register ONLY after they trust you). Some carts MAKE you register to complete an order.
*A toll free number, so they can call you if they have a concern.

I'm sure there's more, but I think these are the major ones.

thanks

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Phil Spinelli — Thu, 15 May 2008 15:11:28 -0000

They said...

"In the A/B test of a 10% coupon vs. no offer, the discount obviously won. The coupon has been a key to making the whole system purr. "It drives people back to the site for the biggest reason they use the Internet -- to save money."

IMO, I'm sure coupons can help, but you will train your customers to want them every time.

I wonder how they worded the coupon, was it, order today and get X off your order (today only).

I know someone who does OK with bounce-back coupons. They give a 10% coupon good on their "next" order (IMO, this would be a smarter offer)

Not every business can afford to give an extra 10% off, we can't.

I would rather increase the amount of orders, then to offer a coupon at the cart.

Online conversions rates are terrible (average 1-4%). I would rather get more people to add items to the cart, then our overall sales would be better.

thanks

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Michel Fortin — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:22:46 -0000

Here's an interesting article on automated virtual assistants and abandoned shopping carts:

http://www.marketingsherpa....

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

The Story Ideas Virtuoso — Wed, 14 May 2008 13:41:57 -0000

@Sylvie @Michel

Love your comments (and the article) -- excellent suggestions all.

(*Have* you and Michel considered careers in writing? LOL)

Why would any of us be surprised you two have come up with stunning alternatives to this pesky problem? Thanks for the swipe file ideas.

Deb Gallardo

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Phil Spinelli — Wed, 14 May 2008 10:57:02 -0000

A few things I observed from over 10 years in the online and retail business. And beside our retail and online store, I've been selling most of my life, even when I was a kid, I bought most of my own clothes, bike, car, and other things from working, like walking dogs, cutting grass, cleaning pools, working in my dads business, etc.

About coupons: You need to be careful offering coupons, you will train your customers to only buy when they have a coupon. Coupons can work, but can cause you problems too.

About price: If you sell a product that is available else-where. Price IS a important factor in selling, as a general rule, you can charge up to 10% more then the average price IF your service is much better. But it's a tricky situation. You need to be competitive on price, but there are other factors too, like honesty, service and selection.

I alway see people saying price is not a major factor in selling, but it is, (unless you have a unique product, like, maybe, if you're a copywriter and YOUR writing skills are in the top 10%). But even then, I'll bet you'll still have your price shoppers.

Today, we not only need to compete on price, but we need to have the fastest delivery, honest service, great selection, best product copy, complete product information, customer follow up, etc.

About exit pop-up coupons: if you do this, you'll train customers to exit then buy. And you'll attract those horrible price shoppers.

If you experiment with the layout of your website AND the copy, you'll get people to stick around longer and maybe buy, not just on price alone. You need to mimic the person-to-person sales situation on your website. If you have real world sales training, you'll know what I mean.

About competing on price alone: Look at the battle between walmart and target, walmart is all about price (and they are the biggest) and IMO they sell junk. If someone comes along and beats then on price, their customers will leave them. Target will still have their customers. Competing on price alone in dangerous.

thanks,

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Bobby Handzhiev — Wed, 14 May 2008 03:26:21 -0000

I agree with the post. I personally hate when I am offering the same thing again. If I don't want it, giving a discount or bonus will not change my mind, just let me leave.

Offering a different product or package is much better idea. However I would try to offer a freebie or newsletter subscription and try to presell the user there. If he came on my sales letter, he is obviously interested in the topic, so he could either choose a different product or re-decide to buy later without being hard-sold with discounts or bonuses.

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Simon Thurston — Wed, 14 May 2008 02:53:53 -0000

I too have come accross this tactic recently and for reasons of sensitivity I won't reveal the names involved. Whilst many exit offers DO in fact offer a relevant and compelling reason for the offer, I would agree that several of these "virtual assistants" exit pop-ups offer no value and no relevancy at all.

I heard Mike Filsaime talk about this very subject a couple of years ago (and indeed he used it for BM)where he spoke about using VALUE to build your brand, rather than price. To simply make a deep cut price reduction is, in my opinion, the wrong way to approach it. Mike explains that removing some bonuses, or changing the product and/or bonuses to digital rather than physical products is an effective and "customer friendly" way to approach an exit offer.

Indeed another tactic that Robert Puddy uses, is to offer an affiliate product with a link to the product site, and say something like "I completely understand if this (my) product is not right for you, but maybe product X (affiliate product) will be more suitable ..." - I'll throw that tactic in for free LOL!!

Having EXACTLY the same offer (in terms of product range) and simply discounting the price as a last ditch attempt would always leave me wondering "If I'm a valued customer, why didn't you offer me this price in the beginning?"

As always, great post Michel :o)

Simon

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Juri Saragih — Tue, 13 May 2008 22:14:23 -0000

Nice blog Mr. Fortin,

In here, i found a lot of trick and tips for my copywriting learning as a amateur copywriter. :)

Greeting from Pontianak, Indonesia.

Juri Saragih

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Nigel Aslett — Tue, 13 May 2008 22:03:45 -0000

Hi Michel,
It's not often that I click on emails with just the link, but,I am glad I did this time. Your comments are spot on, I often click off just to see if the VSA is going to pop up. If I am interested in the offer and no VSA popped up then I would go back to the sales page and buy it. Why should I pay my hard earned cash if I can get it $10 cheaper just by leaving. I purchased VSA myself and have not used it because I have already got hacked off with its use on other sites.

It's the same with popups to snag the emails.. I agree that you should get their details but why shove this in their face as soon as they come to your site. It is like many shops these days, the salesmen grab you as soon as you walk through the door and it's bloody annoying. I know most people just want to browse the store without the hassle of hovering sales people.

I know that a much better way would be a welcome popup ( I'm not a copy writer)..i.e. "Welcome to my site please read this very exciting offer I have for you today. If you decide not to take me up on this offer then I would like ask for your opinion as too why! What you think is very important to me and if you are willing to share your reasons with me I will try to address the issues you raise. I will also reward you for your for your time. Please close this popup now and enjoy the offer."

This way you are making the person feel that their opinion is worth something.. they feel important and they are expecting another popup to give them that chance to express themselves. This can include the subscribe offer to give them that reward.

Basically this means that the customer feels welcome, not pressured and gives them the impression that are important to the seller and not just a $.

Like everything in life.. we quickly adjust to the stimuli we see everyday. I know that when i go to a site the majority of the time there it is "subscribe to my newsletter or give me your details and i will send you a report". ENOUGH already! I haven't even seen the goods I came for and already I'm peed off.

I have spoken to many friends etc. and all say the same. Make your customer a friend who can trust you and you wont have to SELL him on anything again, your future "offer" will be trusted.

Make them feel that you care for them and not just your bank balance and see the difference!

just me 2c worth.

Nigel

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Sylvie Fortin — Tue, 13 May 2008 20:56:21 -0000

I think the real issue here is the consumer's emotional impressions, rather than sales "bottom line".

It is our job to train our customers that they can and should trust us, that they will get lots of value from us, and develop long term relationships with our customers.

The "hey, here's a discount because you didn't buy" message is entirely wrong, in my view.

It teaches them NOT to buy from you right away, and gives them yet another reason to procrastinate.

How about these ideas instead?

1. The "Peek Behind The Curtain" strategy

Offer a sneak peek at what's included when they buy, and if possible, show extra unannounced bonuses you didn't mention on the salesletter.

2. The "Would You Rather The Lite Version" strategy

Offer the smaller package for a smaller price. Or, one with no bonuses. Be careful with this. Otherwise, it could be interpreted that your bonuses weren't really free after all.

3. The "You Pat My Back and I'll..." strategy

How about a discount in exchange for a testimonial? Or a discount in exchange for using your Tell a Friend script?

4. The "I Appreciate Your Consideration" strategy

Thank them for having taken the time out of their busy lives to review your offer. You understand that it isn't what they are looking for right now and want to improve your offers in future. To properly thank them, GIVE something of real value in exchange for their feedback. But they do need to register their email address and feedback to get the freebie.

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Andrew Cavanagh — Tue, 13 May 2008 19:05:07 -0000

Discounting is the lowest form of marketing.

I've tested various exit offers and the one we found made the most sales was revealing bonuses that weren't offered in the sales letter.

But I you really need to think about why your prospect is leaving your sales page in the first place.

As Michel points out most people aren't leaving due to price.

You need to make an attempt to deal with the most common objection or problem people have when they leave your sales page.

Another obvious strategy is to offer an email course or gift related to your product in exchange for an email address (or even just right there to download).

That can help pre-educate prospects who are already leaving on why they should buy from you.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Carolyn Permentier — Tue, 13 May 2008 18:37:01 -0000

Michel,

You really should be a writer!

You have such a way of explaining things. :)

Bottom line: If it's cheesy, cheap, desperate or not believable ... don't do it.

It's like someone leaving the showroom of that same car dealership you mentioned -- and the yokel salesman grabs him by the arm and won't let him open the door.

Would you like that? I'd leave and never come back, no matter what the offer was.

As you said, think of the kinds of customer the 'wrong' kind of exit sale will attract! Who wants cheap, nickel & dimers??

You're too cool. :)

Carolyn
http://blog.kickasscopywrit...

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Michel Fortin — Tue, 13 May 2008 17:47:44 -0000

Here's an example of a "reason why" exit DISCOUNT offer:

BAD WAY: "Wait! I really want to make sure you don't miss out. Here's an extra $[X] off."

OK WAY: "Since you're leaving, it might be because of the price. We understand. So here's an extra $[X] off to help sweeten the pot for you." (Even better, "Here's an extra bonus/incentive to help sweeten the deal...")

BETTER WAY: "You're leaving? Perhaps it's because you're not sure that the product will do [as expected]. Maybe we missed something. Or perhaps it's the price. Either way, we're confident you're going to love [X]. You're going to kick yourself if you miss out. So if you at least give us a try, in return for your quick action here's [an incentive] to help you decide if this is right for you."

(P.S.: It all boils down to copy, doesn't it?)

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Phil Spinelli — Tue, 13 May 2008 17:34:34 -0000

We were thinking about trying an exit coupon to collect snail mail addresses, then mail them a coupon with a catalog.

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

big jason — Tue, 13 May 2008 17:29:02 -0000

@Michael

no, not about exit offers. I read that you weren't knocking them. I should have been more clear. my bad.

I was commenting on all your reasons for not liking the discount tactic

big jason

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

Michel Fortin — Tue, 13 May 2008 17:22:11 -0000

@Big Jason:

Is it speculation? It depends what you think I'm speculating on. If it's the use of the exit offer, that's not speculation. As I said in my blog post, it works. And I know for a fact that it works extremely well, too.

I'm a big fan of exit offers. And heck, I'm also a fan of discount offers.

But let me repeat, paraphrase, and be clear:

While I love exit offers and discounts, what I'm referring to are empty discounted offers "just because" they're leaving.

Discounts alone, or discounts for no good reason other than the fact the person is leaving, is what I'm against.

Exit offers are fantastic. Exit offers with discounts are also fantastic -- as long the discounts come with a good reason why, or with a trade-off, or in the form of a downsell (instead of a "straight discount").

My opinion is that, doing it this way is not only a lot more believable but also more conducive to stronger relationships, increased backend sales, and overall higher perceived value.

Re: Customers Won’t Discount Your Dishonesty

big jason — Tue, 13 May 2008 17:18:29 -0000

i'm reading everyone's comments, and it seems again everyone is just speculating and going with the "i don't like it therefore most people won't either" which is dangerous and costly in many cases.

i think michael's post does bring up a good point though. do people that use it "assume" that people are leaving because of the price? that would be a mistake. not to say that the default tactic of offering a discount won't work or be profitable, but maybe other tactics discussed by michael would work even better.

probably why marketingexperiments says "marketing is testing. don't speculate; test"

big jason