Michel Fortin SEO Consulting - Latest Comments in Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Franck Silvestre — Mon, 11 May 2009 04:10:56 -0000

I'd rather be a professional marketer than be a magician. In the end, people will know if you are a real deal. I mean, they are not that dumb to not notice what you do or what you often 'promise' you can do and deliver. Be truthful, and you'll be in a win-win scenario. I do not prefer anything blackhat myself. Nice one Michael! :)

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Shirley Bass — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:29:49 -0000

It's been 3 weeks, since I purchased a program from an internet markerter and could not download the product. I live in the country and still buy Internet service by the byte.

Come to find out, there were numerous videos to download. The first three used my avaliable bytes and my computer became a snail. Not only that, but two of the videos were corrupt.

I was promised that this Internet Marketer would reformat the program into streaming video, but I haven't heard another word about the program since then.

And, oh yes, many of his links, lead nowhere. I get the feeling he throws stuff out there in a sloppy effort to impress perscective buyers. But is only thinking of his next project and how he'll get the people on that one.

It's a bad way to do business. I'm not naming names today and will give him a couple more days to get the job done correctly. After that, I will begin warning others of his bad busniess tatics.

Customers come first, before boasting about how wonderful he is. And, bragging about what's stewing in his pot for his next effort to leave the customer empty handed.

Good article Michel. Hope all Internet Marketers read it.

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Michael Leahy — Sun, 26 Apr 2009 02:57:24 -0000

Maybe I'm cynical, but having frequented numerous marketing messageboards and even clubs, I can't help remembering the numbers of people asking for help of a very basic nature. When you click through to their sites, you find they are promising the 10 secrets to Internet millions and the like. The gap between what they are trying to sell and their actual level of knowledge is shocking, but is part and parcel of the gold rush mentality that fuels a lot of these sites.

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Kacper — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 02:53:09 -0000

Hi Michel,

When I read this article it's as if I was reading my own
words :o

This these past few days I have come to the same conclusion.

I have been chasing a lot of different "strategies" and "tactics"
in the past year, while my progress has slowed down more
and more.

I have realized it's time to go back to the "old school" ...

Back when the standard model of starting an online
business was:

1. Get a HIGH QUALITY product
2. Start building relationships

That's all it was in the beginning.

The scene has really shifted so dramatically over the
past 3 years it's insane. So many new 'hot shots' and
people playing 'the game'.

There are many people making MILLIONS online every
month selling Acai supplements and ring-tones with
forced continuity models. However these are the
same people changing bank-accounts every week,
getting sued, and even going to jail. (

Of course, you never see that side of it or hear
those stories, just see the glossy "front cover"
of the guy who's doing really "well" with some
new tactic/biz set up. So it's easy to start
being sucked in and thinking you're missing
out on some new marketing "revelation".

If you're new to Online Marketing, don't be
fooled! Old-school marketing and business
always has and always will be the most successful.

It is just the media and form of message delivery
that is constantly changing.

Kacper

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

IncreaseSalesCoach — Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:54:37 -0000

I wholeheartedly agree with your 3 basic business principles. Plus as you mention, anyone serious about a service business understands you can't exist long-term on one time sales it's all about the relationships you create.

What surprises me though is that you're just now either noticing or getting fed up with the "black hat" tricks in internet marketing.

Some of your peers grew up under the tutelage of a crusty old marketer, you know exactly the steer riding person I refer to, whose game has always been a black hat game. Promise a system, mail out a big box filled with piles of random junk in multiple formats, charge a big price, and then act shocked when your pile of junk doesn't actually help people because it tells them what to do not how to do it or it tells them how to do things that don't work anymore.

Perhaps you're just surprised that this type of selfish thinking is so prevalent now.

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Mike Bianchi — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 19:26:00 -0000

Thanks Michel,

What you said needed saying as did Sylvie's "Internet Marketing SIns" (I just saw the Part 3 video a couple days ago).

I have reached the point where I am unsubscribing to lists and greatly reducing the number of folks that I will accept emails from or buy from. I decided after the last "upsell hell" episode when making an online purchase that I would cancel the sale. I had to go to my credit card company to do this. If enough buyers refuse to be upsell victims, it will send a chilling message to the predators: "Put the strong-arm upsell on me and I will cancel my purchase"....

Keep fighting the good fight. You have friends and allies.

Best regards,
Mike

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Jesucita — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 03:36:35 -0000

Hi Michel,

As you may know I enjoy reading your blog posts although I am not re-active in comments. This time I have something to say about Twitter, looking at it from outside the box.(as an anthropologist by training).

Jack Dorsey’s Twitter was created as a messaging service that works over multiple networks and devices. It can be linked to website, SMS or external applications.

Twitter as a routing system is not limited to social networking. While it’s creating an online culture that makes connectivity to loved ones, friends and circle of followers in a split instance, its power belies its simple features. It has deeper functionality than Jack Dorsey tends to think…is more powerful than Facebook and MySpace, which have remained to this day functionally social networks.

With Twitter, its structure is designed for multiform or versatile roles that can have quantum impact on spheres of modern life that make access to information a necessary presence. Imagine what Twitter can do on aspects of education and training, public order, health and home care, not to mention marketing and gaming industry.

However, like anything of value (many of them still undiscovered or undisclosed), Twitter’s potentials for abuses loom large in the Internet where “policing” of your
sort is few and far between. Blogs such as yours and websites that remind us that the Internet (warts and moles) can grow with us as we go through life and still seem great are worth talking about and always will be.

And Twitter can be fun. And there can be a bag of tricks. Michel, even in copy writing there are bags of tricks. But who says marketing can’t be fun?

All the best to you and Sylvie.

Jesucita

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Ken Calhoun — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:24:13 -0000

One way to think about all of it is in a 2x2 matrix...

Along the top there's "Quality of Information" (variables = authentic, vs snakeoil)

Along the side there's "Marketing Processes Used" (variables = solid processes vs blackhat)

The challenge is to create stuff that's BOTH authentic/high quality And market it using aboveboard world class good processes (like product launch formula, traffic secrets' tips, great copywriting, continuity done right and the rest of it.

What I see all too often is BS that's marketed with world-class tactics, eg something using a product launch process that's Not a genuinely useful, proven product... it's a "pig in a dress, marketed well". ... so yes they get sales, but the customers get ripped off... something that's all bright and shiny, overpriced so the affiliates can get a big cut... and the customers left holding the bag.

2 of the other quadrants are bad as well, eg good product, marketed via blackhat, and crap product, marketed via blackhat.

The only thing that' worth doing, is marketing quality, proven products with world-class processes (eg study Reese, Deiss, Kennedy, Walker et al for solid processes). But 98%+ of the content out there is either overpriced (like $2000 info-products, or software with monthly continuity fees...gimme a break), not proven by a real authority, rehashed, or simply not top-notch quality. And then HOW it's marketed is also critically important.

The good news is that those who aspire to produce genuinely useful info products, not rehashed bs, and market them using top-notch processes, can be seen as the honest, credible, hardworking and trustworthy (read longevity, for long term sales, trust) for their markets.

I celebrated last weekend because one of my longtime competitors went out of business. Their problem? They had nice sales copy (much of it ripped off from my style), but they had no authenticity -- they tried to copy my trading sites because of my success, but they weren't real traders who could back up their promises, so the market showed them the door. All those years of work down the toilet, because they were phonies. Hah. I'm glad about that. It's how it should be. Don't create info products unless you're authentic -- the market can smell bs over time.

to profits,

-ken

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Stacy — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 03:46:46 -0000

I agree that holding people's money hostage is a scuzzy thing to do, and not a good way to build repeat business. Crap like this is why marketing (particularly internet marketing) gets a bad name. What happens when everyone wises up? Where's the repeat cash flow if your customer has such a horrible experience that they never want to buy from you again?

Might seem strange to some people, but I ask myself... What would Scrooge McDuck do? He said: "I made my fortune by being smarter than the smarties and tougher than the toughies, and I made it square."

Sage marketing advice for a comic book character.

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Mike — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 23:24:41 -0000

Amen, brother, amen.

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Mike Humphreys — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 23:20:05 -0000

Hey Michel,

Great article. I hear what you're saying about the unethical practices in the IM niche and that's one of the reasons why I started writing more frequently for clients in non-IM niches and offline businesses. Some of the crap I was asked to put into the copy I was writing for some IM folks would have landed me in serious hot water. For example, making up product testimonials when none existed.

I think the "recession" is bringing more of the slight of hand acts, especially with marketers who might be faced with ultra-thin wallets themselves. The other part of it is folks who are desperate for any quick-cash fix that they can find... well, let's just say they are in a bad place to be taken advantage of and sold something that doesn't really solve their problems.

I consider myself fortunate that having built a successful offline business before, I've seen my share of snake oil salespeople. In the past, I've gotten burned by some of them and learned how to spot them early.

Once I moved into the online world, it went from dealing with local snake oil salespeople to those who I heard about on a global scale. Mind you, I believe 95% of the IM folks I've met online or in person are basically good people. Many times, they are serious entrepreneurs which I think is great, regardless of whether I ever do business with them or not. It's that minority group that just leaves everyone with a bad taste in their mouth and even worse opinion of the IM niche.

My philosophy has become to choose wisely who I will sign up for their ezines/blog/newsletters and even more so for their paid products. The folks who run an ethical business continue to get my interest and even a chunk of my cash. The slimy snakes... well, I find a way to jettison them and never do business in any fashion with them again.

Anyways, thanks again Michel. You continue to show many people that is possible to become a successful marketer and copywriter without selling your soul (or snake oil).

Take care,

Mike

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

john — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:18:24 -0000

Hey Mike,

Great post - there sure is a lot of sleaze out there.

I don't think that internet marketing will ever be 'game over' though...

Geepas...every single site that sells someting is involved in internet marketing if you look at it one from one perspective.

So, no the industry will live forever...however, there will doubtless be tighter reigns on it.

Like telemarketing...free for all untill DO NOT CALL list....

That is why I think it's important to have a lots of strategies up one sleeve.

Personally ,I am studying direct mail and postcard marketing in particular...so all my eggs aren't in the one basket.

Cheers

John

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Lorraine Grula — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:12:01 -0000

Great post.

Michel Fortin, the one lone wolf in the wilderness.

We like to think we live in a world where the cliche, "cheaters never prosper" is true. Pardon my cynicism, many cheaters DO prosper. The only redeeming thought is the hope that they do not prosper for long.

The worst of the worst are the folks who claim to be honest and true but are cheating everybody behind their backs.

Lorraine

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

UPrinting Review — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:14:47 -0000

You deserve a standing ovation for this! Really great job! I love your writing, very inspirational. My favorite line: "Make money not at the expense of others but at the service of others." That says it all right there. It's what's at the heart of Marketing and Customer Service. Thanks for posting this!

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Hilary Dickinson — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:49:23 -0000

Thanks for this post Michel.

I am just finding my way into Internet Marketing with a strong desire to help people. This comes from my job as a teacher wanting to use my knowledge and experience to help more people than just those who are sitting in the classroom with me.

I have been concerned from the beginning about some of the techniques used, but as a newbie I admit that I have fallen for some of them when I have bought products. It can be incredibly confusing.

I have always said that I will only align myself with good quality, useful, ethical information products and if that means that I make less money in a period of time, then so be it. I wish to keep my integrity - that is too precious to me to throw away chasing some extra money.

As a newbie it can be difficult to know who to trust as there is so much information about, but I have learned very quickly that I can trust what you say. Thank you for opening my eyes further - I agree with what you say about targeting the right audience, giving them the right message and making it easy for them to buy from you. I shall be using those three things to guide me as I move into launching my own information products soon.

Hilary

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Ansub Chaudry — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:09:31 -0000

thanks for your response you have cleared things up.

I would like to say that I do agree with you after the post because as a 19 year old wannabe internet marketer- I remember going through and reading information on BlackHatWorld.com.

I would go through the forum looking for cheap shot exploits to make money. And you what Michel?

Eventually I got pissed off because that forum most of the time is ALL about the money. I never hear any of the "marketers" talk about serving customers, enjoy helping others and making a name.

And what's funny is after 2-3 months of spending my time there I learned something very important: All of these goons CONSTANTLY talk about "tricks" and "gaming" the system.

The always are trying to find some stupid method.

Then I remember one of colleagues said one thing- Even though it wasn't directed at me- It finally clicked in my brain.

He said "all this time you're just running gimmicks and not once have you decided to really set up an actual business. If you really know all this stuff about internet marketing, then start a service. It can be as easy as setting up basic "online brochure" websites for local business. It can be a "let me sell your stuff on Craigslist and eBay" for people who don't want to learn it and take half. You can't afford to go with all these "methods" because no matter what they promise, they're ALL temporary. The only thing that will last is making a real business. Time to grow up or give up."

I think the main lesson here, Michel- Is that if you want to be one of the big successful companies- You have to act like it- Which means you should stop succumbing to short term techniques because it is a sign that your company is just a small time one hit venture that is desperate.

Instead i think the lesson I've learn from your blog post and comments is to SHOW the world that your company is better than that. Your company is so strong and determined to change people's lives that even if they don't make much money in the short term- they can still survive because of their strength and desire to help others.

Here is a blog post I read from one Internet Marketer

[Removed due to length. Please post a link instead.]

Well conclusion? Thanks for replying it helped. I respect your time. conclusion is that you have to always gives something of value to get something in life. Use shortcuts will do more harm than good if you don't QUICKLY switch over to a proper way of earning a living in life.

I will watch the video in full when I get back at night and I will comment on it.

-later.

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Michel Fortin — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:10:14 -0000

Originally Posted By Ansub Chaudry
Are you implying that if a customer hit's the "order button" and BEFORE they put in their credit card- that if they are asked for an upsell- that is unethical?

No. Upsell hell occurs after you've entered your credit card details and clicked the "submit" button, and BEFORE you get to the confirmation page and get what you paid for. And the process I'm specifically referring to is upsell hell (or jail) is when you're hit with MULTIPLE "in-transit" upsell offers before you finally get what you paid for.

An upsell before they buy, or even on the order page itself, ain't a problem. For example, GoDaddy does it a lot. Amazon, too, with their "other people who searched for [A] were also interested in [B]..." Those are perfectly fine, in my estimation.

For example, asking someone "do you want fries with that?" when you order a burger at McDonald's is perfectly fine. You're trying to upsell their current order. You're not trying to add on more items AFTER you've given them your money.

The process I'm referring to is when people order a burger, give the cashier money for the transaction, and since you've given them a large bill, they hold your change in one hand and the food you ordered in the other, asking you...

"I know you're hungry, but before I give you your change back AND your food, do you want fries with that? How about an apple pie? How about a sundae? Or how about our burger of the month club?"

See the difference?

When you attempt to upsell someone BEFORE they enter their credit card details is perfectly legitimate. And powerful, too. When you do it after, that's perfectly fine as well -- as long as they know their order went through and they have access to what their ordered, and can leave if they wanted to.

Also, why are so against NLP? Do you think my business will be long term if I provided my customers with quality products, honesty and I gave them the best service I could provide from my heart but.....but.... I used mind control and NLP? (Eben Pagan uses NLP)

Again, it's not the tactics I'm against. It's their misuse and particularly their abuse.

My point is to stop focusing on increasing sales in the short term using mind tricks (or any other trick), and start focusing on delivering value. On solving problems. On serving your customers and serving them well.

To answer your last question...

So would (you) say this business is long term even if I use some dirt bag techniques on google, yahoo, msn, and some unethical ways of gaming the system?

The issue is not "longevity." The issue is, you risk the longevity -- or more specifically, I'm saying you're focusing on the short term. You're focused on making money rather than building a business and serving your customers.

It's like saying, "If I sell illegally pirated DVDs on the street corner, but people still buy and I'm still serving my customers well, will this be long term?"

Let me ask, how long will you remain in business if you continue? You can get away with it if you're lucky. But it's still a dirtbag technique. Selling what people want and making them happy, even if you have good intentions, doesn't make your business or marketing efforts any more legitimate or appropriate.

Personally, I think black-hat stuff is CRAP.

Gaming Google, Twitter, or whatever (and most importantly, your customers) is never long-term once they catch up with you. Either that or you'll be constantly forced to change your tactics to match their changing algorithms all the time -- changes they make to in turn stop your black-hat stuff in the first place.

Tell me, would you rather focus the bulk of your time on constantly one-upping the search engines (or whatever system you use to make money)? Or do you think your time would be better spent on more effective and important things, like serving your customers, growing your business, building your brand, and offering valuable solutions to people's problems?

Here's a quick video by Seth Godin that explains this a bit more in-depth...

http://sethgodin.typepad.co...

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

anitaashland — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:45:19 -0000

Thanks to both you and Sylvie for having the courage to speak up about internet marketing malpractice. Your integrity is a source of encouragement to me.

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Loren Woirhaye — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:31:05 -0000

I call IM a game because I try to have fun doing it - but I take your meaning here and agree.

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Ansub Chaudry — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:26:41 -0000

Michel,

I have a question.

Are you implying that if a customer hit's the "order button" and BEFORE they put in their credit card- that if they are asked for an upsell- that is unethical?

Example: Customer hits order for HDTV on Amazon.com, before Amazon refers them to the order page, they are presented with an Upsell for a HDTV Table for their TV. If they choose no- they are directed to the order page to enter their credit card and address. If yes, the item is added to their order and they are directed to the order page to enter their info. Are saying that is unethical????

Are you saying that it is unethical for a business to not give immediate confirmation/access to their order after they hit "submit order" and instead the marketer is hitting them with a bunch of upsell offers?

I think the former is fine and ethical. Nothing wrong. But I think the latter is very unethical and an insult to customers of their intelligence.

___________________________________________________________________________

Also, why are so against NLP? Do you think my business will be long term if I provided my customers with quality products, honesty and I gave them the best service I could provide from my heart but.....but.... I used mind control and NLP? (Eben Pagan uses NLP)

I also even emailed my customers and asked if they are happy or not happy with my product? And I even offered a refund to those who were unhappy?

But at the sametime, I used some Blackhat in SEO, PPC and some sketchy techniques to get traffic to my website?

Keep in mind that I help my customers a lot, I support them, all of them are happy and I have a great reputation.

Their are NO complaints of my product being a scam and everyone is happy. In fact, I charge A LOT less than what I should to my customers.

So would say this business is long term even if I use some dirt bag techniques on google, yahoo, msn, and some unethical ways of gaming the system?

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Frederick Specht — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:15:34 -0000

Thanks for being there for us......

Fred

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Jason — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:26:08 -0000

Very well said Michel. You have made it completely clear what is happening in the industry. Although there are still many who do honor, respect and give good service and products, I must admit many have also taken the path of being "opportunists" and that's definitely sad. I hope we all will realize that ethics and honor is still important before it is too late.

I appreciate your giving this warning and I hope many will be made aware.
Looking forward to more of your posts.

thanks,
Jason
@www.internetmarketing.com-seemore.info

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Justin Brooke — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:19:24 -0000

Found some interesting finds today...

TwitterCash? http://workfromhomemovies.c...

GoogleNinja? http://www.shoemoney.com/20...
(ShoeMoney.com used to be GoogleNinja.com!!!)

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Shawn — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:08:48 -0000

Bravo Michel. It's rare that I post a comment on a blog but yours deserves some of my time. You did an excellent job explaining to people the importance of running a business instead of chasing money.

I hate the "Upsell Hell" to get to the product. Shoot, if I jump through more than one hoop I never purchase from that individual again.

It tugs at my heart when I encounter people who have been taking for a ride by various tactics that's only used to get money and rarely deliver the goods on the back end.

When the buyer stops falling for hype maybe the tactics will stop working. Let's see what happens!

Great job!

Shawn Nelson, MSA

Re: Black Hats Are For Magicians, Not Marketers

Ken Calhoun — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:51:47 -0000

Your points are well made as usual, and I completely agree. As someone with a credentialed background, it bugs me to see so called 'experts' mislead. You know the kind, they see a hot target market, jump into it after reading a couple of books, pretending vs really being experts, which hurts and misleads customers... I'll coin a brilliant new term I'll call "internet marketing malpractice", which it is.

So you have unqualified people (another issue entirely) using unscrupulous methods to try and foist non-working information products on the general public, so that's a compounded malpractice sin committed by so many out there.

Everyone, feel free to use that term, "internet marketing malpractice", because that's what so many people are doing, pushing total bs into markets (like mine, trading -- eg I'm a real trader, but so many people selling trading stuff have never even traded in their lives, much less profitably).... which damages the reputation of genuine authorities and makes the world a more cynical, distrustful, suffering place than it is already.

Information products should be produced by REAL authorities who are good at what they do, not just marketers who want to hustle for a quick buck via affiliate networks. And they should be marketed with integrity, without hidden trickery as you mention. The GOOD news is that those who conduct themselves with honor and integrity (like yourself, Michel, and a few others), continue to earn respect and trust from the marketplace - which is how it should be.

To profits, earned honestly -

-Ken