Hear, hear. Sales and marketing has become a word associated with sleazy money-grabbers, and with good reason. The problem is that sales and marketing isn't sleazy or money-grabbing - it's crucial to help any business survive.
Freelancers need to market. Small businesses need to market. And yet they're turning away from marketing their own services and products - *killing* their own chance of success - because they don't want to be associated with push, pressure and manipulation.
I've been working on a small series on marketing for freelancers that helps them both understand the tactics, learn more about them and how to avoid using them for the power of just padding a wallet. Used morally, ethically and properly, sales and marketing does do good things for the world.
It's time for people to take a stand and bring this aspect of business back into the positive arena it should be - while learning how to avoid strategies used by those who wield their tactics only for their own benefit.
Mike
· 8 months ago
That's an outstanding post Michael. I totally agree. And many of my suspicions were confirmed through your article. This is one reason why I quit the affiliate marketing scene. It seemed shady to me as many offers are based on camoflaging the continuity offers. And most AM'ers could care less about the people they're peddling products to. It comes down to serving customers and delivering value and being a business of integrity. Building relationships by no means sounds sexy, trying to "NLP" people into buying seems cool, but in the end, I don't buy into a lot of the NLP stuff as it gives you the wrong mindset of trying to "compete" with the customer. What truly matters is building relationships and truly caring about the people you're selling to.
Dr.Mani
· 8 months ago
Michel, around 2 or 3 years back, I was almost at a point where you seem to be today, emotionally. At a point where I was ASHAMED to call myself an 'Internet marketer'.
So I decided to QUIT. And spent a month reviewing what was at the core of what I did, stood for, and wanted to be known as. The answer was: "Creating infoproducts that solved problems and helped people."
It has made me happier, and more at peace with what I do - and not surprisingly, all my copy, product type and marketing methods have changed subtly to fit that new persona.
Why am I sharing this? Because I sense a growing frustration with the status quo from your recent blog posts. And while it is commendable that you are trying hard to spotlight the questionable practices and behavior that's growing ever so blatant and rampant in this niche, I would hate to see it turn you cynical or disillusioned to the point you might just end up walking away in disgust.
You're that rare, refreshing beacon that guides the less experienced and 'still not given up on hope' beginner who so badly needs a role model to not just emulate, but also respect.
Take a break, if you must. But keep on being the 'leading by example from a position of ethical success' guy that you have always been, instead of becoming a 'harsh critic who is almost giving up' on the industry you're near the top of!
Just my 2 cents.
All success Dr.Mani
Mr. Twenty Twenty
· 8 months ago
Michael,
As usual, you kick ass mate.
I am an old school NLP guy, who is sick and tired of people using a potentially great technology, just to rape, pillage, and steal a few bucks.
Thank you for mentioning it here in this article, and thank you for bringing respectability to internet marketing.
Too many "quick buck" and "one night stand" marketers out there.
Keep keeping it real!
Twenty Twenty
Russell
· 8 months ago
I don't think that this could have been said any more eloquently than you've put it Michel. It takes guts to stand and be counted for what's right and for what you believe in, and despite the risk of ruffling some feathers you've done exactly that. It needed to be said and it's well and truly overdue! Hats off and kudos to you once again. Cheers!
Rich
· 8 months ago
Michael,
S.S.S.uperb! Damn, somebody gets it!
Okay, I am going to back to finish reading the rest of the article.
Ian Brodie
· 8 months ago
This was a really important post Michel.
In my job I help professionals market and sell their services better. In the last 6 months I've noticed a profusion of courses and teleclasses all talking about how consultants and coaches can increase their sales. They focus on how products can be packaged and messages used to "compell" customers to buy.
But not once have any of these courses thought about whether doing so is more helpful to the consultant's or coach's clients. Very often it's the reverse - the consultant's services are packaged up in such a way (e.g. in an online book) that is likely to sell more and make them more money - but is equally likely to have much less impact and results for the client than their previous services.
Now, of course, you can't ensalve yourself to the needs of your customers - otherwise you'd be working 24/7 for free. But at the end of the day you must find a way to do better for yourself while doing better for them - not one vs the other.
Ian
David
· 8 months ago
Boy Howdy! I will admit to having canceled several orders for products I would have gotten because I have been frustrated with the upsells. I also have begun to resent the implications involved in some of the pressure applied. There are 3 companies right now who have products I want to get but the special price for their initial product comes with a price - test membership in some sort of monthly membership I don't want any part of YET.
The reason I'm so averse to this is they say it's a test drive and if you decide not to stay, no problem! No hard feelings, keep all the bonuses and thank you. However when you do, and it turns out you decide to cancel for whatever reason, it turns out you are cut off from all further communication, labeled a refunder and worse. While I know there are always those folks out there who will use this as a mentality to get as much as possible for free and move on to the next, there really are people who don't think your site is all that, decide the monthly cost to be more more than what they want to pay for the services rendered, etc.
I know of 2 who I honestly tried, never asked for refunds, still have other products I bought from them and was happy with but now have permanently been banned me from all contact. Why? Because their test drive was not a direction I wanted to go at this time and thanks but it's not what I was looking for at this time. If you want your bonuses back, no problem. Now I should say also when I mean I tried them, I tried them for at least a year to give them a fair test. Not the free month but at least one full year. I figured this was a good faith effort on my part but I was then informed that since I dropped out, I am an evil person and stay away.
In what part of this did I commit such a grievous insult to them that I deserved to be treated so badly? Apparently it's a common tactic and looked on as standard ethical practice to lump anyone who says thanks but no thanks after a fair test as a problem and you need to get rid of them pronto. The fact I am labeled and grouped in such a way means anyone who says this is on my immediate watch list as a perfect example of how NOT to do business. If you say it's okay and no hard feelings then turn around tell me to get lost, is that honest? Is that being anything but a hypocrite? The people who do this have no honor.
If this was an established pattern, I would understand and wholeheartedly agree. However if they have purchased other products, never refunded any of them, bought products while testing and not refunded those, how is this person anything but a resource who just didn't like your membership site? Where's the inquiries to find out more about what you did like, what wasn't there, how can we improve it so you would want to come back and/or stay with us?
It leaves me cold and I won't be warming up to it anytime soon...
Thanks!
David
Rich
· 8 months ago
Finished.
Let's combat this garbage. Develop solutions for this mess...
"Rewrite the rules of the game!"
Rich
Delaware Marketing Consultant
· 8 months ago
Good info.
Resorting to tricks is like chasing your tail.
And if you rely on them for your cash, you could wake up one day, find your tricks are no longer working, and you're bleeding cash all over the place.
Clive
· 8 months ago
It really gets my goat that these guys ( forced continuity etc.) are making so much money and laughing at the likes of you and I. They aren't going to get a backdated set of ethics at this stage of their successful game.
It boils down to the fact that, with subscriber lists in the hundreds of thousands (multiples of that when they JV with fellow 'gurus'), they only have to convert one in a thousand to have the sort of residual monthly payday most of us honest marketers can but dream about.
I fight back the only way I can by unsubscribing from any list that promotes this ( as you say) 'snake oil'.
This mafia have already tainted the term 'Internet Marketer' with their shoddy values already and I despair quite honestly.
Ken Calhoun
· 8 months ago
Your points are well made as usual, and I completely agree. As someone with a credentialed background, it bugs me to see so called 'experts' mislead. You know the kind, they see a hot target market, jump into it after reading a couple of books, pretending vs really being experts, which hurts and misleads customers... I'll coin a brilliant new term I'll call "internet marketing malpractice", which it is.
So you have unqualified people (another issue entirely) using unscrupulous methods to try and foist non-working information products on the general public, so that's a compounded malpractice sin committed by so many out there.
Everyone, feel free to use that term, "internet marketing malpractice", because that's what so many people are doing, pushing total bs into markets (like mine, trading -- eg I'm a real trader, but so many people selling trading stuff have never even traded in their lives, much less profitably).... which damages the reputation of genuine authorities and makes the world a more cynical, distrustful, suffering place than it is already.
Information products should be produced by REAL authorities who are good at what they do, not just marketers who want to hustle for a quick buck via affiliate networks. And they should be marketed with integrity, without hidden trickery as you mention. The GOOD news is that those who conduct themselves with honor and integrity (like yourself, Michel, and a few others), continue to earn respect and trust from the marketplace - which is how it should be.
To profits, earned honestly -
-Ken
Shawn
· 8 months ago
Bravo Michel. It's rare that I post a comment on a blog but yours deserves some of my time. You did an excellent job explaining to people the importance of running a business instead of chasing money.
I hate the "Upsell Hell" to get to the product. Shoot, if I jump through more than one hoop I never purchase from that individual again.
It tugs at my heart when I encounter people who have been taking for a ride by various tactics that's only used to get money and rarely deliver the goods on the back end.
When the buyer stops falling for hype maybe the tactics will stop working. Let's see what happens!
Very well said Michel. You have made it completely clear what is happening in the industry. Although there are still many who do honor, respect and give good service and products, I must admit many have also taken the path of being "opportunists" and that's definitely sad. I hope we all will realize that ethics and honor is still important before it is too late.
I appreciate your giving this warning and I hope many will be made aware. Looking forward to more of your posts.
thanks, Jason @www.internetmarketing.com-seemore.info
Frederick Specht
· 8 months ago
Thanks for being there for us......
Fred
Ansub Chaudry
· 8 months ago
Michel,
I have a question.
Are you implying that if a customer hit's the "order button" and BEFORE they put in their credit card- that if they are asked for an upsell- that is unethical?
Example: Customer hits order for HDTV on Amazon.com, before Amazon refers them to the order page, they are presented with an Upsell for a HDTV Table for their TV. If they choose no- they are directed to the order page to enter their credit card and address. If yes, the item is added to their order and they are directed to the order page to enter their info. Are saying that is unethical????
OR
Are you saying that it is unethical for a business to not give immediate confirmation/access to their order after they hit "submit order" and instead the marketer is hitting them with a bunch of upsell offers?
I think the former is fine and ethical. Nothing wrong. But I think the latter is very unethical and an insult to customers of their intelligence.
Also, why are so against NLP? Do you think my business will be long term if I provided my customers with quality products, honesty and I gave them the best service I could provide from my heart but.....but.... I used mind control and NLP? (Eben Pagan uses NLP)
I also even emailed my customers and asked if they are happy or not happy with my product? And I even offered a refund to those who were unhappy?
But at the sametime, I used some Blackhat in SEO, PPC and some sketchy techniques to get traffic to my website?
Keep in mind that I help my customers a lot, I support them, all of them are happy and I have a great reputation.
Their are NO complaints of my product being a scam and everyone is happy. In fact, I charge A LOT less than what I should to my customers.
So would say this business is long term even if I use some dirt bag techniques on google, yahoo, msn, and some unethical ways of gaming the system?
Loren Woirhaye
· 8 months ago
I call IM a game because I try to have fun doing it - but I take your meaning here and agree.
anitaashland
· 8 months ago
Thanks to both you and Sylvie for having the courage to speak up about internet marketing malpractice. Your integrity is a source of encouragement to me.
Michel Fortin
· 8 months ago
Originally Posted By Ansub Chaudry Are you implying that if a customer hit's the "order button" and BEFORE they put in their credit card- that if they are asked for an upsell- that is unethical?
No. Upsell hell occurs after you've entered your credit card details and clicked the "submit" button, and BEFORE you get to the confirmation page and get what you paid for. And the process I'm specifically referring to is upsell hell (or jail) is when you're hit with MULTIPLE "in-transit" upsell offers before you finally get what you paid for.
An upsell before they buy, or even on the order page itself, ain't a problem. For example, GoDaddy does it a lot. Amazon, too, with their "other people who searched for [A] were also interested in [B]..." Those are perfectly fine, in my estimation.
For example, asking someone "do you want fries with that?" when you order a burger at McDonald's is perfectly fine. You're trying to upsell their current order. You're not trying to add on more items AFTER you've given them your money.
The process I'm referring to is when people order a burger, give the cashier money for the transaction, and since you've given them a large bill, they hold your change in one hand and the food you ordered in the other, asking you...
"I know you're hungry, but before I give you your change back AND your food, do you want fries with that? How about an apple pie? How about a sundae? Or how about our burger of the month club?"
See the difference?
When you attempt to upsell someone BEFORE they enter their credit card details is perfectly legitimate. And powerful, too. When you do it after, that's perfectly fine as well -- as long as they know their order went through and they have access to what their ordered, and can leave if they wanted to.
Also, why are so against NLP? Do you think my business will be long term if I provided my customers with quality products, honesty and I gave them the best service I could provide from my heart but.....but.... I used mind control and NLP? (Eben Pagan uses NLP)
Again, it's not the tactics I'm against. It's their misuse and particularly their abuse.
My point is to stop focusing on increasing sales in the short term using mind tricks (or any other trick), and start focusing on delivering value. On solving problems. On serving your customers and serving them well.
To answer your last question...
So would (you) say this business is long term even if I use some dirt bag techniques on google, yahoo, msn, and some unethical ways of gaming the system?
The issue is not "longevity." The issue is, you risk the longevity -- or more specifically, I'm saying you're focusing on the short term. You're focused on making money rather than building a business and serving your customers.
It's like saying, "If I sell illegally pirated DVDs on the street corner, but people still buy and I'm still serving my customers well, will this be long term?"
Let me ask, how long will you remain in business if you continue? You can get away with it if you're lucky. But it's still a dirtbag technique. Selling what people want and making them happy, even if you have good intentions, doesn't make your business or marketing efforts any more legitimate or appropriate.
Personally, I think black-hat stuff is CRAP.
Gaming Google, Twitter, or whatever (and most importantly, your customers) is never long-term once they catch up with you. Either that or you'll be constantly forced to change your tactics to match their changing algorithms all the time -- changes they make to in turn stop your black-hat stuff in the first place.
Tell me, would you rather focus the bulk of your time on constantly one-upping the search engines (or whatever system you use to make money)? Or do you think your time would be better spent on more effective and important things, like serving your customers, growing your business, building your brand, and offering valuable solutions to people's problems?
Here's a quick video by Seth Godin that explains this a bit more in-depth...
thanks for your response you have cleared things up.
I would like to say that I do agree with you after the post because as a 19 year old wannabe internet marketer- I remember going through and reading information on BlackHatWorld.com.
I would go through the forum looking for cheap shot exploits to make money. And you what Michel?
Eventually I got pissed off because that forum most of the time is ALL about the money. I never hear any of the "marketers" talk about serving customers, enjoy helping others and making a name.
And what's funny is after 2-3 months of spending my time there I learned something very important: All of these goons CONSTANTLY talk about "tricks" and "gaming" the system.
The always are trying to find some stupid method.
Then I remember one of colleagues said one thing- Even though it wasn't directed at me- It finally clicked in my brain.
He said "all this time you're just running gimmicks and not once have you decided to really set up an actual business. If you really know all this stuff about internet marketing, then start a service. It can be as easy as setting up basic "online brochure" websites for local business. It can be a "let me sell your stuff on Craigslist and eBay" for people who don't want to learn it and take half. You can't afford to go with all these "methods" because no matter what they promise, they're ALL temporary. The only thing that will last is making a real business. Time to grow up or give up."
I think the main lesson here, Michel- Is that if you want to be one of the big successful companies- You have to act like it- Which means you should stop succumbing to short term techniques because it is a sign that your company is just a small time one hit venture that is desperate.
Instead i think the lesson I've learn from your blog post and comments is to SHOW the world that your company is better than that. Your company is so strong and determined to change people's lives that even if they don't make much money in the short term- they can still survive because of their strength and desire to help others.
Here is a blog post I read from one Internet Marketer
[Removed due to length. Please post a link instead.]
Well conclusion? Thanks for replying it helped. I respect your time. conclusion is that you have to always gives something of value to get something in life. Use shortcuts will do more harm than good if you don't QUICKLY switch over to a proper way of earning a living in life.
I will watch the video in full when I get back at night and I will comment on it.
-later.
Hilary Dickinson
· 8 months ago
Thanks for this post Michel.
I am just finding my way into Internet Marketing with a strong desire to help people. This comes from my job as a teacher wanting to use my knowledge and experience to help more people than just those who are sitting in the classroom with me.
I have been concerned from the beginning about some of the techniques used, but as a newbie I admit that I have fallen for some of them when I have bought products. It can be incredibly confusing.
I have always said that I will only align myself with good quality, useful, ethical information products and if that means that I make less money in a period of time, then so be it. I wish to keep my integrity - that is too precious to me to throw away chasing some extra money.
As a newbie it can be difficult to know who to trust as there is so much information about, but I have learned very quickly that I can trust what you say. Thank you for opening my eyes further - I agree with what you say about targeting the right audience, giving them the right message and making it easy for them to buy from you. I shall be using those three things to guide me as I move into launching my own information products soon.
Hilary
UPrinting Review
· 8 months ago
You deserve a standing ovation for this! Really great job! I love your writing, very inspirational. My favorite line: "Make money not at the expense of others but at the service of others." That says it all right there. It's what's at the heart of Marketing and Customer Service. Thanks for posting this!
Lorraine Grula
· 8 months ago
Great post.
Michel Fortin, the one lone wolf in the wilderness.
We like to think we live in a world where the cliche, "cheaters never prosper" is true. Pardon my cynicism, many cheaters DO prosper. The only redeeming thought is the hope that they do not prosper for long.
The worst of the worst are the folks who claim to be honest and true but are cheating everybody behind their backs.
Lorraine
john
· 8 months ago
Hey Mike,
Great post - there sure is a lot of sleaze out there.
I don't think that internet marketing will ever be 'game over' though...
Geepas...every single site that sells someting is involved in internet marketing if you look at it one from one perspective.
So, no the industry will live forever...however, there will doubtless be tighter reigns on it.
Like telemarketing...free for all untill DO NOT CALL list....
That is why I think it's important to have a lots of strategies up one sleeve.
Personally ,I am studying direct mail and postcard marketing in particular...so all my eggs aren't in the one basket.
Cheers
John
Mike Humphreys
· 8 months ago
Hey Michel,
Great article. I hear what you're saying about the unethical practices in the IM niche and that's one of the reasons why I started writing more frequently for clients in non-IM niches and offline businesses. Some of the crap I was asked to put into the copy I was writing for some IM folks would have landed me in serious hot water. For example, making up product testimonials when none existed.
I think the "recession" is bringing more of the slight of hand acts, especially with marketers who might be faced with ultra-thin wallets themselves. The other part of it is folks who are desperate for any quick-cash fix that they can find... well, let's just say they are in a bad place to be taken advantage of and sold something that doesn't really solve their problems.
I consider myself fortunate that having built a successful offline business before, I've seen my share of snake oil salespeople. In the past, I've gotten burned by some of them and learned how to spot them early.
Once I moved into the online world, it went from dealing with local snake oil salespeople to those who I heard about on a global scale. Mind you, I believe 95% of the IM folks I've met online or in person are basically good people. Many times, they are serious entrepreneurs which I think is great, regardless of whether I ever do business with them or not. It's that minority group that just leaves everyone with a bad taste in their mouth and even worse opinion of the IM niche.
My philosophy has become to choose wisely who I will sign up for their ezines/blog/newsletters and even more so for their paid products. The folks who run an ethical business continue to get my interest and even a chunk of my cash. The slimy snakes... well, I find a way to jettison them and never do business in any fashion with them again.
Anyways, thanks again Michel. You continue to show many people that is possible to become a successful marketer and copywriter without selling your soul (or snake oil).
Take care,
Mike
Mike
· 8 months ago
Amen, brother, amen.
Stacy
· 8 months ago
I agree that holding people's money hostage is a scuzzy thing to do, and not a good way to build repeat business. Crap like this is why marketing (particularly internet marketing) gets a bad name. What happens when everyone wises up? Where's the repeat cash flow if your customer has such a horrible experience that they never want to buy from you again?
Might seem strange to some people, but I ask myself... What would Scrooge McDuck do? He said: "I made my fortune by being smarter than the smarties and tougher than the toughies, and I made it square."
Sage marketing advice for a comic book character.
Ken Calhoun
· 8 months ago
One way to think about all of it is in a 2x2 matrix...
Along the top there's "Quality of Information" (variables = authentic, vs snakeoil)
Along the side there's "Marketing Processes Used" (variables = solid processes vs blackhat)
The challenge is to create stuff that's BOTH authentic/high quality And market it using aboveboard world class good processes (like product launch formula, traffic secrets' tips, great copywriting, continuity done right and the rest of it.
What I see all too often is BS that's marketed with world-class tactics, eg something using a product launch process that's Not a genuinely useful, proven product... it's a "pig in a dress, marketed well". ... so yes they get sales, but the customers get ripped off... something that's all bright and shiny, overpriced so the affiliates can get a big cut... and the customers left holding the bag.
2 of the other quadrants are bad as well, eg good product, marketed via blackhat, and crap product, marketed via blackhat.
The only thing that' worth doing, is marketing quality, proven products with world-class processes (eg study Reese, Deiss, Kennedy, Walker et al for solid processes). But 98%+ of the content out there is either overpriced (like $2000 info-products, or software with monthly continuity fees...gimme a break), not proven by a real authority, rehashed, or simply not top-notch quality. And then HOW it's marketed is also critically important.
The good news is that those who aspire to produce genuinely useful info products, not rehashed bs, and market them using top-notch processes, can be seen as the honest, credible, hardworking and trustworthy (read longevity, for long term sales, trust) for their markets.
I celebrated last weekend because one of my longtime competitors went out of business. Their problem? They had nice sales copy (much of it ripped off from my style), but they had no authenticity -- they tried to copy my trading sites because of my success, but they weren't real traders who could back up their promises, so the market showed them the door. All those years of work down the toilet, because they were phonies. Hah. I'm glad about that. It's how it should be. Don't create info products unless you're authentic -- the market can smell bs over time.
to profits,
-ken
Jesucita
· 8 months ago
Hi Michel,
As you may know I enjoy reading your blog posts although I am not re-active in comments. This time I have something to say about Twitter, looking at it from outside the box.(as an anthropologist by training).
Jack Dorsey’s Twitter was created as a messaging service that works over multiple networks and devices. It can be linked to website, SMS or external applications.
Twitter as a routing system is not limited to social networking. While it’s creating an online culture that makes connectivity to loved ones, friends and circle of followers in a split instance, its power belies its simple features. It has deeper functionality than Jack Dorsey tends to think…is more powerful than Facebook and MySpace, which have remained to this day functionally social networks.
With Twitter, its structure is designed for multiform or versatile roles that can have quantum impact on spheres of modern life that make access to information a necessary presence. Imagine what Twitter can do on aspects of education and training, public order, health and home care, not to mention marketing and gaming industry.
However, like anything of value (many of them still undiscovered or undisclosed), Twitter’s potentials for abuses loom large in the Internet where “policing” of your sort is few and far between. Blogs such as yours and websites that remind us that the Internet (warts and moles) can grow with us as we go through life and still seem great are worth talking about and always will be.
And Twitter can be fun. And there can be a bag of tricks. Michel, even in copy writing there are bags of tricks. But who says marketing can’t be fun?
All the best to you and Sylvie.
Jesucita
Mike Bianchi
· 8 months ago
Thanks Michel,
What you said needed saying as did Sylvie's "Internet Marketing SIns" (I just saw the Part 3 video a couple days ago).
I have reached the point where I am unsubscribing to lists and greatly reducing the number of folks that I will accept emails from or buy from. I decided after the last "upsell hell" episode when making an online purchase that I would cancel the sale. I had to go to my credit card company to do this. If enough buyers refuse to be upsell victims, it will send a chilling message to the predators: "Put the strong-arm upsell on me and I will cancel my purchase"....
Keep fighting the good fight. You have friends and allies.
Best regards, Mike
IncreaseSalesCoach
· 8 months ago
I wholeheartedly agree with your 3 basic business principles. Plus as you mention, anyone serious about a service business understands you can't exist long-term on one time sales it's all about the relationships you create.
What surprises me though is that you're just now either noticing or getting fed up with the "black hat" tricks in internet marketing.
Some of your peers grew up under the tutelage of a crusty old marketer, you know exactly the steer riding person I refer to, whose game has always been a black hat game. Promise a system, mail out a big box filled with piles of random junk in multiple formats, charge a big price, and then act shocked when your pile of junk doesn't actually help people because it tells them what to do not how to do it or it tells them how to do things that don't work anymore.
Perhaps you're just surprised that this type of selfish thinking is so prevalent now.
Kacper
· 8 months ago
Hi Michel,
When I read this article it's as if I was reading my own words :o
This these past few days I have come to the same conclusion.
I have been chasing a lot of different "strategies" and "tactics" in the past year, while my progress has slowed down more and more.
I have realized it's time to go back to the "old school" ...
Back when the standard model of starting an online business was:
1. Get a HIGH QUALITY product 2. Start building relationships
That's all it was in the beginning.
The scene has really shifted so dramatically over the past 3 years it's insane. So many new 'hot shots' and people playing 'the game'.
There are many people making MILLIONS online every month selling Acai supplements and ring-tones with forced continuity models. However these are the same people changing bank-accounts every week, getting sued, and even going to jail. (
Of course, you never see that side of it or hear those stories, just see the glossy "front cover" of the guy who's doing really "well" with some new tactic/biz set up. So it's easy to start being sucked in and thinking you're missing out on some new marketing "revelation".
If you're new to Online Marketing, don't be fooled! Old-school marketing and business always has and always will be the most successful.
It is just the media and form of message delivery that is constantly changing.
Kacper
Michael Leahy
· 8 months ago
Maybe I'm cynical, but having frequented numerous marketing messageboards and even clubs, I can't help remembering the numbers of people asking for help of a very basic nature. When you click through to their sites, you find they are promising the 10 secrets to Internet millions and the like. The gap between what they are trying to sell and their actual level of knowledge is shocking, but is part and parcel of the gold rush mentality that fuels a lot of these sites.
Shirley Bass
· 8 months ago
It's been 3 weeks, since I purchased a program from an internet markerter and could not download the product. I live in the country and still buy Internet service by the byte.
Come to find out, there were numerous videos to download. The first three used my avaliable bytes and my computer became a snail. Not only that, but two of the videos were corrupt.
I was promised that this Internet Marketer would reformat the program into streaming video, but I haven't heard another word about the program since then.
And, oh yes, many of his links, lead nowhere. I get the feeling he throws stuff out there in a sloppy effort to impress perscective buyers. But is only thinking of his next project and how he'll get the people on that one.
It's a bad way to do business. I'm not naming names today and will give him a couple more days to get the job done correctly. After that, I will begin warning others of his bad busniess tatics.
Customers come first, before boasting about how wonderful he is. And, bragging about what's stewing in his pot for his next effort to leave the customer empty handed.
Good article Michel. Hope all Internet Marketers read it.
Franck Silvestre
· 7 months ago
I'd rather be a professional marketer than be a magician. In the end, people will know if you are a real deal. I mean, they are not that dumb to not notice what you do or what you often 'promise' you can do and deliver. Be truthful, and you'll be in a win-win scenario. I do not prefer anything blackhat myself. Nice one Michael! :)
All Comments
Freelancers need to market. Small businesses need to market. And yet they're turning away from marketing their own services and products - *killing* their own chance of success - because they don't want to be associated with push, pressure and manipulation.
I've been working on a small series on marketing for freelancers that helps them both understand the tactics, learn more about them and how to avoid using them for the power of just padding a wallet. Used morally, ethically and properly, sales and marketing does do good things for the world.
It's time for people to take a stand and bring this aspect of business back into the positive arena it should be - while learning how to avoid strategies used by those who wield their tactics only for their own benefit.
you seem to be today, emotionally. At a point where I was
ASHAMED to call myself an 'Internet marketer'.
So I decided to QUIT. And spent a month reviewing what was at
the core of what I did, stood for, and wanted to be known as.
The answer was: "Creating infoproducts that solved problems
and helped people."
That's when I re-created my online persona as the "Internet
INFOPRENEUR" - http://InternetInfopreneur.com
It has made me happier, and more at peace with what I do - and
not surprisingly, all my copy, product type and marketing methods
have changed subtly to fit that new persona.
Why am I sharing this? Because I sense a growing frustration
with the status quo from your recent blog posts. And while it
is commendable that you are trying hard to spotlight the
questionable practices and behavior that's growing ever so
blatant and rampant in this niche, I would hate to see it
turn you cynical or disillusioned to the point you might
just end up walking away in disgust.
You're that rare, refreshing beacon that guides the less
experienced and 'still not given up on hope' beginner who
so badly needs a role model to not just emulate, but also
respect.
Take a break, if you must. But keep on being the 'leading by
example from a position of ethical success' guy that you have
always been, instead of becoming a 'harsh critic who is almost
giving up' on the industry you're near the top of!
Just my 2 cents.
All success
Dr.Mani
As usual, you kick ass mate.
I am an old school NLP guy, who is sick and tired of people using a potentially great technology, just to rape, pillage, and steal a few bucks.
Thank you for mentioning it here in this article, and thank you for bringing respectability to internet marketing.
Too many "quick buck" and "one night stand" marketers out there.
Keep keeping it real!
Twenty Twenty
It takes guts to stand and be counted for what's right and for what you believe in, and despite the risk of ruffling some feathers you've done exactly that.
It needed to be said and it's well and truly overdue!
Hats off and kudos to you once again.
Cheers!
S.S.S.uperb! Damn, somebody gets it!
Okay, I am going to back to finish reading the rest of the article.
In my job I help professionals market and sell their services better. In the last 6 months I've noticed a profusion of courses and teleclasses all talking about how consultants and coaches can increase their sales. They focus on how products can be packaged and messages used to "compell" customers to buy.
But not once have any of these courses thought about whether doing so is more helpful to the consultant's or coach's clients. Very often it's the reverse - the consultant's services are packaged up in such a way (e.g. in an online book) that is likely to sell more and make them more money - but is equally likely to have much less impact and results for the client than their previous services.
Now, of course, you can't ensalve yourself to the needs of your customers - otherwise you'd be working 24/7 for free. But at the end of the day you must find a way to do better for yourself while doing better for them - not one vs the other.
Ian
The reason I'm so averse to this is they say it's a test drive and if you decide not to stay, no problem! No hard feelings, keep all the bonuses and thank you. However when you do, and it turns out you decide to cancel for whatever reason, it turns out you are cut off from all further communication, labeled a refunder and worse. While I know there are always those folks out there who will use this as a mentality to get as much as possible for free and move on to the next, there really are people who don't think your site is all that, decide the monthly cost to be more more than what they want to pay for the services rendered, etc.
I know of 2 who I honestly tried, never asked for refunds, still have other products I bought from them and was happy with but now have permanently been banned me from all contact. Why? Because their test drive was not a direction I wanted to go at this time and thanks but it's not what I was looking for at this time. If you want your bonuses back, no problem. Now I should say also when I mean I tried them, I tried them for at least a year to give them a fair test. Not the free month but at least one full year. I figured this was a good faith effort on my part but I was then informed that since I dropped out, I am an evil person and stay away.
In what part of this did I commit such a grievous insult to them that I deserved to be treated so badly? Apparently it's a common tactic and looked on as standard ethical practice to lump anyone who says thanks but no thanks after a fair test as a problem and you need to get rid of them pronto. The fact I am labeled and grouped in such a way means anyone who says this is on my immediate watch list as a perfect example of how NOT to do business. If you say it's okay and no hard feelings then turn around tell me to get lost, is that honest? Is that being anything but a hypocrite? The people who do this have no honor.
If this was an established pattern, I would understand and wholeheartedly agree. However if they have purchased other products, never refunded any of them, bought products while testing and not refunded those, how is this person anything but a resource who just didn't like your membership site? Where's the inquiries to find out more about what you did like, what wasn't there, how can we improve it so you would want to come back and/or stay with us?
It leaves me cold and I won't be warming up to it anytime soon...
Thanks!
David
Let's combat this garbage. Develop solutions for this mess...
"Rewrite the rules of the game!"
Rich
Resorting to tricks is like chasing your tail.
And if you rely on them for your cash, you could wake up one day, find your tricks are no longer working, and you're bleeding cash all over the place.
It boils down to the fact that, with subscriber lists in the hundreds of thousands (multiples of that when they JV with fellow 'gurus'), they only have to convert one in a thousand to have the sort of residual monthly payday most of us honest marketers can but dream about.
I fight back the only way I can by unsubscribing from any list that promotes this ( as you say) 'snake oil'.
This mafia have already tainted the term 'Internet Marketer' with their shoddy values already and I despair quite honestly.
So you have unqualified people (another issue entirely) using unscrupulous methods to try and foist non-working information products on the general public, so that's a compounded malpractice sin committed by so many out there.
Everyone, feel free to use that term, "internet marketing malpractice", because that's what so many people are doing, pushing total bs into markets (like mine, trading -- eg I'm a real trader, but so many people selling trading stuff have never even traded in their lives, much less profitably).... which damages the reputation of genuine authorities and makes the world a more cynical, distrustful, suffering place than it is already.
Information products should be produced by REAL authorities who are good at what they do, not just marketers who want to hustle for a quick buck via affiliate networks. And they should be marketed with integrity, without hidden trickery as you mention. The GOOD news is that those who conduct themselves with honor and integrity (like yourself, Michel, and a few others), continue to earn respect and trust from the marketplace - which is how it should be.
To profits, earned honestly -
-Ken
I hate the "Upsell Hell" to get to the product. Shoot, if I jump through more than one hoop I never purchase from that individual again.
It tugs at my heart when I encounter people who have been taking for a ride by various tactics that's only used to get money and rarely deliver the goods on the back end.
When the buyer stops falling for hype maybe the tactics will stop working. Let's see what happens!
Great job!
Shawn Nelson, MSA
TwitterCash? http://workfromhomemovies.com/twittercash
GoogleNinja? http://www.shoemoney.com/2005/08/28/googleninja...
(ShoeMoney.com used to be GoogleNinja.com!!!)
I appreciate your giving this warning and I hope many will be made aware.
Looking forward to more of your posts.
thanks,
Jason
@www.internetmarketing.com-seemore.info
Fred
I have a question.
Are you implying that if a customer hit's the "order button" and BEFORE they put in their credit card- that if they are asked for an upsell- that is unethical?
Example: Customer hits order for HDTV on Amazon.com, before Amazon refers them to the order page, they are presented with an Upsell for a HDTV Table for their TV. If they choose no- they are directed to the order page to enter their credit card and address. If yes, the item is added to their order and they are directed to the order page to enter their info. Are saying that is unethical????
OR
Are you saying that it is unethical for a business to not give immediate confirmation/access to their order after they hit "submit order" and instead the marketer is hitting them with a bunch of upsell offers?
I think the former is fine and ethical. Nothing wrong. But I think the latter is very unethical and an insult to customers of their intelligence.
___________________________________________________________________________
Also, why are so against NLP? Do you think my business will be long term if I provided my customers with quality products, honesty and I gave them the best service I could provide from my heart but.....but.... I used mind control and NLP? (Eben Pagan uses NLP)
I also even emailed my customers and asked if they are happy or not happy with my product? And I even offered a refund to those who were unhappy?
But at the sametime, I used some Blackhat in SEO, PPC and some sketchy techniques to get traffic to my website?
Keep in mind that I help my customers a lot, I support them, all of them are happy and I have a great reputation.
Their are NO complaints of my product being a scam and everyone is happy. In fact, I charge A LOT less than what I should to my customers.
So would say this business is long term even if I use some dirt bag techniques on google, yahoo, msn, and some unethical ways of gaming the system?
No. Upsell hell occurs after you've entered your credit card details and clicked the "submit" button, and BEFORE you get to the confirmation page and get what you paid for. And the process I'm specifically referring to is upsell hell (or jail) is when you're hit with MULTIPLE "in-transit" upsell offers before you finally get what you paid for.
An upsell before they buy, or even on the order page itself, ain't a problem. For example, GoDaddy does it a lot. Amazon, too, with their "other people who searched for [A] were also interested in [B]..." Those are perfectly fine, in my estimation.
For example, asking someone "do you want fries with that?" when you order a burger at McDonald's is perfectly fine. You're trying to upsell their current order. You're not trying to add on more items AFTER you've given them your money.
The process I'm referring to is when people order a burger, give the cashier money for the transaction, and since you've given them a large bill, they hold your change in one hand and the food you ordered in the other, asking you...
"I know you're hungry, but before I give you your change back AND your food, do you want fries with that? How about an apple pie? How about a sundae? Or how about our burger of the month club?"
See the difference?
When you attempt to upsell someone BEFORE they enter their credit card details is perfectly legitimate. And powerful, too. When you do it after, that's perfectly fine as well -- as long as they know their order went through and they have access to what their ordered, and can leave if they wanted to.
Again, it's not the tactics I'm against. It's their misuse and particularly their abuse.
My point is to stop focusing on increasing sales in the short term using mind tricks (or any other trick), and start focusing on delivering value. On solving problems. On serving your customers and serving them well.
To answer your last question...
The issue is not "longevity." The issue is, you risk the longevity -- or more specifically, I'm saying you're focusing on the short term. You're focused on making money rather than building a business and serving your customers.
It's like saying, "If I sell illegally pirated DVDs on the street corner, but people still buy and I'm still serving my customers well, will this be long term?"
Let me ask, how long will you remain in business if you continue? You can get away with it if you're lucky. But it's still a dirtbag technique. Selling what people want and making them happy, even if you have good intentions, doesn't make your business or marketing efforts any more legitimate or appropriate.
Personally, I think black-hat stuff is CRAP.
Gaming Google, Twitter, or whatever (and most importantly, your customers) is never long-term once they catch up with you. Either that or you'll be constantly forced to change your tactics to match their changing algorithms all the time -- changes they make to in turn stop your black-hat stuff in the first place.
Tell me, would you rather focus the bulk of your time on constantly one-upping the search engines (or whatever system you use to make money)? Or do you think your time would be better spent on more effective and important things, like serving your customers, growing your business, building your brand, and offering valuable solutions to people's problems?
Here's a quick video by Seth Godin that explains this a bit more in-depth...
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/04...
I would like to say that I do agree with you after the post because as a 19 year old wannabe internet marketer- I remember going through and reading information on BlackHatWorld.com.
I would go through the forum looking for cheap shot exploits to make money. And you what Michel?
Eventually I got pissed off because that forum most of the time is ALL about the money. I never hear any of the "marketers" talk about serving customers, enjoy helping others and making a name.
And what's funny is after 2-3 months of spending my time there I learned something very important: All of these goons CONSTANTLY talk about "tricks" and "gaming" the system.
The always are trying to find some stupid method.
Then I remember one of colleagues said one thing- Even though it wasn't directed at me- It finally clicked in my brain.
He said "all this time you're just running gimmicks and not once have you decided to really set up an actual business. If you really know all this stuff about internet marketing, then start a service. It can be as easy as setting up basic "online brochure" websites for local business. It can be a "let me sell your stuff on Craigslist and eBay" for people who don't want to learn it and take half. You can't afford to go with all these "methods" because no matter what they promise, they're ALL temporary. The only thing that will last is making a real business. Time to grow up or give up."
I think the main lesson here, Michel- Is that if you want to be one of the big successful companies- You have to act like it- Which means you should stop succumbing to short term techniques because it is a sign that your company is just a small time one hit venture that is desperate.
Instead i think the lesson I've learn from your blog post and comments is to SHOW the world that your company is better than that. Your company is so strong and determined to change people's lives that even if they don't make much money in the short term- they can still survive because of their strength and desire to help others.
Here is a blog post I read from one Internet Marketer
[Removed due to length. Please post a link instead.]
Well conclusion? Thanks for replying it helped. I respect your time. conclusion is that you have to always gives something of value to get something in life. Use shortcuts will do more harm than good if you don't QUICKLY switch over to a proper way of earning a living in life.
I will watch the video in full when I get back at night and I will comment on it.
-later.
I am just finding my way into Internet Marketing with a strong desire to help people. This comes from my job as a teacher wanting to use my knowledge and experience to help more people than just those who are sitting in the classroom with me.
I have been concerned from the beginning about some of the techniques used, but as a newbie I admit that I have fallen for some of them when I have bought products. It can be incredibly confusing.
I have always said that I will only align myself with good quality, useful, ethical information products and if that means that I make less money in a period of time, then so be it. I wish to keep my integrity - that is too precious to me to throw away chasing some extra money.
As a newbie it can be difficult to know who to trust as there is so much information about, but I have learned very quickly that I can trust what you say. Thank you for opening my eyes further - I agree with what you say about targeting the right audience, giving them the right message and making it easy for them to buy from you. I shall be using those three things to guide me as I move into launching my own information products soon.
Hilary
Michel Fortin, the one lone wolf in the wilderness.
We like to think we live in a world where the cliche, "cheaters never prosper" is true. Pardon my cynicism, many cheaters DO prosper. The only redeeming thought is the hope that they do not prosper for long.
The worst of the worst are the folks who claim to be honest and true but are cheating everybody behind their backs.
Lorraine
Great post - there sure is a lot of sleaze out there.
I don't think that internet marketing will ever be 'game over' though...
Geepas...every single site that sells someting is involved in internet marketing if you look at it one from one perspective.
So, no the industry will live forever...however, there will doubtless be tighter reigns on it.
Like telemarketing...free for all untill DO NOT CALL list....
That is why I think it's important to have a lots of strategies up one sleeve.
Personally ,I am studying direct mail and postcard marketing in particular...so all my eggs aren't in the one basket.
Cheers
John
Great article. I hear what you're saying about the unethical practices in the IM niche and that's one of the reasons why I started writing more frequently for clients in non-IM niches and offline businesses. Some of the crap I was asked to put into the copy I was writing for some IM folks would have landed me in serious hot water. For example, making up product testimonials when none existed.
I think the "recession" is bringing more of the slight of hand acts, especially with marketers who might be faced with ultra-thin wallets themselves. The other part of it is folks who are desperate for any quick-cash fix that they can find... well, let's just say they are in a bad place to be taken advantage of and sold something that doesn't really solve their problems.
I consider myself fortunate that having built a successful offline business before, I've seen my share of snake oil salespeople. In the past, I've gotten burned by some of them and learned how to spot them early.
Once I moved into the online world, it went from dealing with local snake oil salespeople to those who I heard about on a global scale. Mind you, I believe 95% of the IM folks I've met online or in person are basically good people. Many times, they are serious entrepreneurs which I think is great, regardless of whether I ever do business with them or not. It's that minority group that just leaves everyone with a bad taste in their mouth and even worse opinion of the IM niche.
My philosophy has become to choose wisely who I will sign up for their ezines/blog/newsletters and even more so for their paid products. The folks who run an ethical business continue to get my interest and even a chunk of my cash. The slimy snakes... well, I find a way to jettison them and never do business in any fashion with them again.
Anyways, thanks again Michel. You continue to show many people that is possible to become a successful marketer and copywriter without selling your soul (or snake oil).
Take care,
Mike
Might seem strange to some people, but I ask myself... What would Scrooge McDuck do? He said: "I made my fortune by being smarter than the smarties and tougher than the toughies, and I made it square."
Sage marketing advice for a comic book character.
Along the top there's "Quality of Information" (variables = authentic, vs snakeoil)
Along the side there's "Marketing Processes Used" (variables = solid processes vs blackhat)
The challenge is to create stuff that's BOTH authentic/high quality And market it using aboveboard world class good processes (like product launch formula, traffic secrets' tips, great copywriting, continuity done right and the rest of it.
What I see all too often is BS that's marketed with world-class tactics, eg something using a product launch process that's Not a genuinely useful, proven product... it's a "pig in a dress, marketed well". ... so yes they get sales, but the customers get ripped off... something that's all bright and shiny, overpriced so the affiliates can get a big cut... and the customers left holding the bag.
2 of the other quadrants are bad as well, eg good product, marketed via blackhat, and crap product, marketed via blackhat.
The only thing that' worth doing, is marketing quality, proven products with world-class processes (eg study Reese, Deiss, Kennedy, Walker et al for solid processes). But 98%+ of the content out there is either overpriced (like $2000 info-products, or software with monthly continuity fees...gimme a break), not proven by a real authority, rehashed, or simply not top-notch quality. And then HOW it's marketed is also critically important.
The good news is that those who aspire to produce genuinely useful info products, not rehashed bs, and market them using top-notch processes, can be seen as the honest, credible, hardworking and trustworthy (read longevity, for long term sales, trust) for their markets.
I celebrated last weekend because one of my longtime competitors went out of business. Their problem? They had nice sales copy (much of it ripped off from my style), but they had no authenticity -- they tried to copy my trading sites because of my success, but they weren't real traders who could back up their promises, so the market showed them the door. All those years of work down the toilet, because they were phonies. Hah. I'm glad about that. It's how it should be. Don't create info products unless you're authentic -- the market can smell bs over time.
to profits,
-ken
As you may know I enjoy reading your blog posts although I am not re-active in comments. This time I have something to say about Twitter, looking at it from outside the box.(as an anthropologist by training).
Jack Dorsey’s Twitter was created as a messaging service that works over multiple networks and devices. It can be linked to website, SMS or external applications.
Twitter as a routing system is not limited to social networking. While it’s creating an online culture that makes connectivity to loved ones, friends and circle of followers in a split instance, its power belies its simple features. It has deeper functionality than Jack Dorsey tends to think…is more powerful than Facebook and MySpace, which have remained to this day functionally social networks.
With Twitter, its structure is designed for multiform or versatile roles that can have quantum impact on spheres of modern life that make access to information a necessary presence. Imagine what Twitter can do on aspects of education and training, public order, health and home care, not to mention marketing and gaming industry.
However, like anything of value (many of them still undiscovered or undisclosed), Twitter’s potentials for abuses loom large in the Internet where “policing” of your
sort is few and far between. Blogs such as yours and websites that remind us that the Internet (warts and moles) can grow with us as we go through life and still seem great are worth talking about and always will be.
And Twitter can be fun. And there can be a bag of tricks. Michel, even in copy writing there are bags of tricks. But who says marketing can’t be fun?
All the best to you and Sylvie.
Jesucita
What you said needed saying as did Sylvie's "Internet Marketing SIns" (I just saw the Part 3 video a couple days ago).
I have reached the point where I am unsubscribing to lists and greatly reducing the number of folks that I will accept emails from or buy from. I decided after the last "upsell hell" episode when making an online purchase that I would cancel the sale. I had to go to my credit card company to do this. If enough buyers refuse to be upsell victims, it will send a chilling message to the predators: "Put the strong-arm upsell on me and I will cancel my purchase"....
Keep fighting the good fight. You have friends and allies.
Best regards,
Mike
What surprises me though is that you're just now either noticing or getting fed up with the "black hat" tricks in internet marketing.
Some of your peers grew up under the tutelage of a crusty old marketer, you know exactly the steer riding person I refer to, whose game has always been a black hat game. Promise a system, mail out a big box filled with piles of random junk in multiple formats, charge a big price, and then act shocked when your pile of junk doesn't actually help people because it tells them what to do not how to do it or it tells them how to do things that don't work anymore.
Perhaps you're just surprised that this type of selfish thinking is so prevalent now.
When I read this article it's as if I was reading my own
words :o
This these past few days I have come to the same conclusion.
I have been chasing a lot of different "strategies" and "tactics"
in the past year, while my progress has slowed down more
and more.
I have realized it's time to go back to the "old school" ...
Back when the standard model of starting an online
business was:
1. Get a HIGH QUALITY product
2. Start building relationships
That's all it was in the beginning.
The scene has really shifted so dramatically over the
past 3 years it's insane. So many new 'hot shots' and
people playing 'the game'.
There are many people making MILLIONS online every
month selling Acai supplements and ring-tones with
forced continuity models. However these are the
same people changing bank-accounts every week,
getting sued, and even going to jail. (
Of course, you never see that side of it or hear
those stories, just see the glossy "front cover"
of the guy who's doing really "well" with some
new tactic/biz set up. So it's easy to start
being sucked in and thinking you're missing
out on some new marketing "revelation".
If you're new to Online Marketing, don't be
fooled! Old-school marketing and business
always has and always will be the most successful.
It is just the media and form of message delivery
that is constantly changing.
Kacper
Come to find out, there were numerous videos to download. The first three used my avaliable bytes and my computer became a snail. Not only that, but two of the videos were corrupt.
I was promised that this Internet Marketer would reformat the program into streaming video, but I haven't heard another word about the program since then.
And, oh yes, many of his links, lead nowhere. I get the feeling he throws stuff out there in a sloppy effort to impress perscective buyers. But is only thinking of his next project and how he'll get the people on that one.
It's a bad way to do business. I'm not naming names today and will give him a couple more days to get the job done correctly. After that, I will begin warning others of his bad busniess tatics.
Customers come first, before boasting about how wonderful he is. And, bragging about what's stewing in his pot for his next effort to leave the customer empty handed.
Good article Michel. Hope all Internet Marketers read it.