Michel Fortin SEO Consulting - Latest Comments in Are All Business People Dishonest?

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

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Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

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Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

xf — Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:57:43 -0000

I agree, when you use words with emotional impact to influence someone's decision, rather than laying out the facts and allowing them to come to their own conclusion, then you are being dishonest. We justify this by calling marketing or business and we objectify this situation by calling these "bad communicators" or saying that they are in the game as well. You are playing a confidence game and swaying people who in all honesty, believe you to be a trust worthy individual. The truth is, you are doing this for your own gains and not for the sake of the individual. But your excuse is everyone is doing it. You even suggested we read the book on it! It is true everyone is doing this is some form or another. We don't seem to realize the damage we have done until it is to late. But yet, it keeps happening: "real estate crisis", "education crisis", "gas crisis", "?-crisis". There is some truth to what you are saying, this is ingrained in our culture, but I think you need to look in the mirror yourself and ask where your marketing moral compass is pointed.

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

1234takeresponsibility — Tue, 07 Aug 2012 05:16:45 -0000

The thing you guys don't get because you are so obsessed with yourselves is that these "whiners" want you to take some responsibility for others. To think of others first. When you market to someone you can influence them to make bad choices. This is dangerous and should be done by first asking yourself "Is this the right thing for this person?". I know you will hide behind the personal responsibility cop out. You guys always do. Nothing easier than washing your hands of any responsibility in the world for anything else but yourself.

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

nikhilgangoli — Fri, 05 Feb 2010 12:18:53 -0000

Michel,

I respect you as an ethical and successful businessman and I would like to buy from you and maybe even work with you in future. So I do not want to irritate you.

Also the purpose of your post was to help people get the right mindset for being successful. Fine.

But I have read some books on philosophy and spirituality and here are my views.

Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. A rich man or a person wanting to be rich will always have his vested interests that he needs to put first. If he does not do that he will cease to remain rich. So that will prevent him from telling the complete truth.

Secondly all salespersons will necessarily present only that side of the picture that helps them get the sale. There is no point expecting philosophical detachment from tham.

Next - it is a time honored principle in commerce. Let the buyer beware. The buyer is expected to safeguard his own interest by finding out if the product is really good for him. The seller is under no obligation to consider the buyer's interests beyond a point. The seller's objective is to make the sale. This has allowed for a certain amount of dishonesty on part of the seller for as long as commerce came into existence.

Lastly a lot of people think like lawyers (in India I have had the misfortune of meeting many such oeioke and they are the pillars of society here). It is possible to tell the truth with the intention to deceive and succeed in deceiving. I am sute lawyers and politicians are experts at following the letter of the law while acting against the spirit of it. It is not surprising that a lot of business people do the same.

Bertrand Russell - a great English philosopher said, "All men are scoundrels - at any rate almost all. Those who are not have been exceptionally lucky either by way for their birth and upbringing, or by way of the environment they found themselves in, or both."

What is important is that the seller (or businessman) is ethical, goodnatured, cares for the customer to some extent at least and is not out to cheat them or rip them off.

Sorry for sounding off like this and going completely off topic on what is after all a site about making money. But I thought I'd just post me comments for the heck of it.

regards

Nikhil

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Philip — Tue, 07 Apr 2009 12:12:04 -0000

The sentence you quote at the beginning Michel is a common expression in the UK

'There's no such thing as an honest business man - ask an accountant'

Seems to me you all got your knickers in a twist over nothing. Claiming personal expenses as business expenses is pretty common place.

Meanwhile,

Marcia Yudkin on her site claims to be one of the world's best copywriters - I hardly call that honest do you?

I've read those copywriter boards and the lies are pretty damn obvious, everyones a goddam expert? Everyone is the worlds best? So why are they posting on forums, devising courses and not doing ANY actual copywriting?

I agree with David, who you trying to kid?

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

David — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 00:38:44 -0000

I've been in sales for 20+ years ands most business people are dishonest FACT. Keep living in your fantasy world people because in reality most c.e.o's and business people are lying,cheating crooks. Anyone who posted on here that most business people are honest are full of shit and just plain stupid.

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Michel Fortin — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:43:07 -0000

Here's an interesting article by John Reese rebutting the same kind of attitude I spoke about in my article:

http://www.income.com/blog/...

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Phil Spinelli — Tue, 27 May 2008 11:09:23 -0000

I had a construction business years ago with my father. My Dad had a great reputation and we were always the highest price.

I used to save articles in the trade magazines about home owners who got ripped off, or other horror stories and show these to customers who brought up price or were getting other estimates.

Most of our work was through word-of-mouth, so most jobs were an easy sell. Our main problem was finding employees who took pride and their work (and could pass a drug test).

I still have friends in the construction business. And see their current problems. With all the Home Depots, Lowes, etc. popping up everywhere a lot of people think they can do it themselves or want to check material prices so they can see what (they think) you're making off them.

Some of my friends try to concentrate on jobs the home owners would never try, like concrete and try to target busy people with money who have no time. One of my friends makes good money buying land a putting up modular homes then selling them.

thanks

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Kirk — Mon, 26 May 2008 22:04:35 -0000

I know I'm posting very late but I recently subscribed to this feed and just read the posting.

I think Phil is closest to the mark. In my experience, people are desperate and afraid. People really want to believe that what we sell is what we say it is AND what they want BUT they are extremely fearful that they are being deceived.

I've been in sales for years now (first furniture and now construction) and notice two trends with difficult customers. The first is as I've stated. Customers approach with the expectation that they are going to be ripped off - and that might be what their experience has taught them in the past. I could show you an addition on my aunt's house for which someone should be penalized. In these cases one initial goal is to determine if I can win their trust and deliver on their expectations. Some people, likely similar to whomever thinks all salespeople are dishonest, might be too damaged to get through to. That's what I need to figure out. But I try to approach with care and consideration since some have actually been victims of the dishonest.

The second trend I notice is what I call the Do-It-Yourself-Cable-TV trend. So many programs are out there telling people what do to and then we end up with them. Of course, they don't know what they're doing and refuse to listen to the voice of experience. So here I have to find a way to kindly expose ignorance in order that they start looking for me to solve their problem, which is what I'm there for in the first place.

In both of these scenarios, the best part is that I know my product is excellent and that I will deliver. It's just working through customer woundedness that takes the work. So the challenge is in discerning who might turn away from the past and become workable customers and who will hold tightly to their wrongs.

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Gavin Ingham — Sat, 10 May 2008 15:15:57 -0000

Michel

I'm not going to talk about the "article", just your "rant"...

In short, you're so right!

People who moan and groan about unethical business people and say that things should be free (or cheaper) are the self same whiners who say that they never talk to salespeople even if this means that they end up buying the wrong products and solutions at the wrong prices...

Far too many people spend far too much time finding ways to chuck the blame for their failures at someone else...

... they spend all night watching hours worth of TV rather than going to night school but then blame their upbringing for their lack of education...

... they say that they have a slow metabolic rate yet they never get off their rear end and go to the gym...

I could go on.

One of the first personal development audios that I ever heard was by Jim Rohn. I cannot remember his exact words now but he was talking about prices and he said that most people moaned about things being too expensive. He pointed out that there was nothing they could do about this and said that they ought to face up to the fact that they did not earn enough.

A great lesson.

My belief is that people often have a pop at marketers, business people and salepeople to make up for their own poor decisions and lack of positive action...

On a similar rant at poorly thought through generalisations against business people, I wrote last week about an article in The Evening Standard about salespeople and The (UK) Apprentice show. You can see the whole article and my response, "People Think Salespeople Are Stupid", in the link I have shown to my website...

Gavin

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Phil Spinelli — Wed, 07 May 2008 18:44:52 -0000

People are stressed out and distrusting.

I mean really, it seems like if you don't watch your back, someone is going to take you for a ride.

thanks.

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Ryan Healy — Wed, 07 May 2008 10:59:27 -0000

@Greg - I agree with your advice to not do anything immoral or unethical. But then you must ask the question: according to what or whom? Where there is no law, there is no trespass. And if there is no law or standard, then I am a law unto myself.

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Greg from Make Money Online — Wed, 07 May 2008 03:45:12 -0000

I am in the make money online internet business and the question you asked sums up everyone's fear. "Are all business people dishonest?" The lack of integrity has killed the trust of business. "Do not do anything immoral or unethical." Quote Lieutenant Ian
Vaughn. This is what LT Vaughn tells all police officers that work under him. He states if you follow this in all aspects of your life you will have no worries. This should also be applied to all businesses. Do not do anything immoral or unethical

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Heather Vale — Mon, 05 May 2008 17:44:08 -0000

Nicely said, Michel.

We run into these "something-for-nothing thinkers" a LOT in the personal development niche, because there is a school of thought that says "anything spiritual (i.e. personal growth, Universal laws, metaphysics, or any broadly related topics) should be FREE".

We tell them they can spend their time and energy digging up all the classic info they can handle for free, online or at the library -- OR, they can save that non-renewable resource of time, SPEND that renewable resource of money (which is also just energy anyhow) and get access to it immediately.

It's a personal choice... and certainly nothing to complain about, because the world can't exist on a one-way slant (all taking and no giving in exchange).

cheers
Heather Vale

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Mr MultiVar — Mon, 05 May 2008 09:32:54 -0000

Michel,

I have some thoughts on your new blog design.

Now I think it is less cluttered, at least on the post page where I am now.

I always liked your header area and it seems the same as before i.e. perfectly fine.

The hover-over links in the sidebar are not so great. I would go with bright blue underlined as you hover over them rather than make them look dull grey.

Also, the footer is a big expanse of grey, why not carry over your nice bright blue header concept to the footer too?

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Ryan Healy — Sun, 04 May 2008 12:58:25 -0000

@Stephen - Yep, illegally burning music really bothers me. I have family members who burn CDs/DVDs and then give them as gifts. I hate that. It really puts me in an awkward situation.

Do you reject the gift and tell the giver he/she has broken the law? Or do you just play along, put the "gift" on the shelf, and ignore it?

I usually opt for Choice #2 because I've tried in the past to discuss this issue with poor results. The thief has already justified his behavior and is not convinced he is doing anything wrong.

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Floyd Fisher — Sun, 04 May 2008 10:24:22 -0000

Bravo.

I run into this all the time when debating mp3 piracy. They feel they should get the songs for free because 'The Record Companies Exploit the Artists'.

Oh really? If it weren't for an evil record company, you would have never heard of 'em.

If it weren't for an evil record company, even if you had heard of 'em, the songs would sound like complete crap (have you ever heard what music sounds like when recorded in a garage) and you probably wouldn't buy it anyhow.

If it weren't for an evil record company, you wouldn't have the access to music you now have.

If it weren't for an evil record company, thousands of people wouldn't have jobs.

Damn those evil record companies...how dare they!

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Siriol Jameson — Sun, 04 May 2008 09:24:02 -0000

There will always be people who are convinced all business people are dishonest. Others say the same thing about lawyers, doctors, plumbers, and bosses. The bigger picture is that you cannot allow such comments to steal away one minute of your health, your happiness, or your life.

The blog looks great, by the way. Well done!

Siriol

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Mr MultiVar — Sun, 04 May 2008 09:17:22 -0000

I think that it is tempting to overstate the truth i.e. hype things up when you may be frustrated with dealing with resistant freebie seeking customers.

Possibly, some marketers over emphasise how easy it may be or how effective something will be if the customer buys their product or solution?

Say you work really hard providing content and information leading up to a product introduction to your readers or potential consumers (maybe for months) and it seems like that all they want is for you to give them more for free.

This could be the tipping point between marketing honestly and simply doing what ever it might take to get them to buy?

Not that I have been in this situation, but I imagine that the hard work that especially bloggers put in, could result in this scenario happening.

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Darwin — Sat, 03 May 2008 21:46:24 -0000

The problem with making a global or universal statement with "ALL" is that if the speaker becomes a business person that speaker is included in the "ALL" so it means that the speaker also would be dishonest.

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Stephen Dean — Sat, 03 May 2008 13:38:43 -0000

@Ryan. That's funny that you bring up the example of burning CD's. That's actually what I was thinking of when saying 98% of people are honest 98% of the time.

I've only met one other person who won't burn/download music or movies on principle.

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Phil Spinelli — Sat, 03 May 2008 10:31:31 -0000

"seeing more and more off line business going under, and all the blame is given to online stores and their prices"

The low price/everything should be free mentality is hurting on-line business too.

From my research, the survival rate of an on-line business is much worse then off-line. Since the 10 years we've been online, 95% of all the business in my industry are gone or sold out.

We live in a walmart generation and if you sell a consumable/commodity type of product, you're in for a tough battle.

thanks.

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

Bobby Handzhiev — Sat, 03 May 2008 06:43:28 -0000

Nice post, Michel. My first association was with Seth's "All marketers are liars". There are many people who want everything for free, but the funny thing is they would never work for free themselves.

On the new design: I usually read you through RSS, but anyway it's nice

Re: Are All Business People Dishonest?

MIKE BEESON — Sat, 03 May 2008 06:18:47 -0000

Hi Michel

Your rant fingers a pervasive and invasive mindset with many forms. Here's a copywriting example you've alluded to in previous posts. It's the one where a client chips away at the agreed deal with 'a bit more of this' and 'a bit more of that' - and all the while exhausting the goodwill that was implicit in the original deal.

You could say there's a 'moral dishonesty' operating in the guise of 'being good at business'. But there's also a moral bankruptcy in those who take advantage of the more informal aspects of business dealings. Let's face it: business people are first and foremost 'PEOPLE' - people who want to build relationships by getting on well with clients.

Sadly, this informality can be abused to the extent that, unless something is agreed in the finest detail regarding prices and service levels, gentleman's agreements are seen as weak, old-fashioned and there to be taken advantage of. The outcome? More caution, certainly. More red tape. Less trust. By smoking out 'dishonest business people', we're being forced to make the world of business a progressively sadder place.

Mike Beeson
Buzzwords copywriting agency
Manchester, England